ummm, why isn't more being made of this? the senate overwhelmingly passed a bill that limits the torture that the u.s. military is allowed to use while interogating. but, vice evil cheney is going around lobbying against it. wha?
and this is the party that is allegedly moral?
7 comments:
But Ed, we're dealing with the Axis of Evil here. Drastic times call for drastic measures. And everyone knows that torture almost always produces actionable information.
i like that it was a freakin 90-9 vote. basically, as i understand representative democracy, we elect 100 people to be a huge part of a third of our governance. then we elect another guy to represent a third. then there's that judicial bunch that get to settle some differences.
90 people make the right choice. and jackhole vows to veto.
oh yeah, mccain is the big proponent of the bill (if not the author). he knows a little something about torture, and fair treatment of prisoners. bush was busy being a clusterf in the national guard while this guy was having his teeth knocked out of his skull (literally) by the vietnamese. i'm still amazed that the repubs managed to make bush look more qualified than mccain on anything. or that the repubs swallowed the bush/rove campaign to discredit mccain's war experience.
uggh. makes my stomach hurt.
I'm not familiar with the details of the bill, but how is torture defined? What about sleep deprivation, loud music, etc. Obviously I would be against beating one over the head with a lead pipe, but are there some forms of "torture" that should be acceptable. My brother is a former Marine and he said that the intel they are getting from these prisoners is vital and saving many lives.
On another note, let me ask you this, from a government perspective (much like the situation above), let's say the US government gets info that a nuclear bomb is going to go off in a major US city and you have in custody a man who knows how to stop it. Is torture acceptable then, as a last resort?
I'll share where I stand on this issue, the US is not a Christian nation and the government does not follow biblical principles, I would prefer there were not torture in the world, I wish it didn't have to come to that. But the world is an evil place, most nations are run by evil people, how govs are run is different from how God's Kingdom is manifest in this world. Therefore, our values are different and we can't apply one to the other. Just where I stand right now. As always, I hold the right to change my mind.
Riiiight...the hypothetical that trumps 'em all.
It's like Fat Tony said on the Simpsons:
"Is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread if your family is starving?"
"Gosh no!" says Bart.
"And what if your family don't like bread? What if they prefer cigarettes?"
Here's the thing: We either are or are not a nation of laws. We either do or do not believe in habeas corpus, a fair trial, the right to know the charges against you. We either do or do not oppose cruel & unusual punishment. When we set up illegal gulags in eastern Europe, we have given up any moral authority we ever had. I tend to think that a lot of life is shades of gray, but I see these issues as black & white.
And while I'm sure that your former marine brother is a sincere and good person, I'll defer to the judgment of Senator McCain (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10019179/site/newsweek/) on whether or not we are getting good intelligence from this.
shoot, i'll defer to him, mccain, on what's acceptable treatment of prisoners because he's been there. if we're going to complain that other groups utilize torture, we had better not do it ourselves. i'm not saying that cutting off heads with a chainsaw is the same as what we're doing, but you lose the right to call other people inhumane whne you, yourself also do inhumane acts.
basically, the bill passed wants to adopt the current army code as the standard. the pres wants the cia to be exempt. huh?
i agree that our nation does not follow biblical perspectives. that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly because it is the right thing to do. if we tolerate injustice, shoot, if we practice injustice in this arena, it seeps into every area of our lives. and whatever role we have as a world leader is tainted.
i don't think we've got a shining reputation in every corner of the world. but if we even want to have a voice and a chance to affect change, we need to treat prisoners by the established rules of conduct, even if we're not defining them as p.o.w.'s.
From what I've heard and read about torture (which isn't a whole lot) very little useful or reliable information is given up through its use.
Using "normal" techniques like asking questions/interviewing prisoners, you're not going to get much more than their name and rank or whatever they're allowed to give up through the Geneva Convention. Once you cross that line to psychological and physical torture, the human mind has been damaged to the point that the person will say just about anything to make the pain stop. I've read one account where a prisoner convinced himself that the sky was any color but blue.
It's a pretty basic rewards system that has been tested on mice. One button gives an electrical shock, the other gives food. I tell you to give me information about Al Quaida and you'll be fine, you don't and I'll zap you with high voltage. After a couple of zaps, you'll tell me anything you think will convince me to stop, even if it's not true.
Well I threw that bone out there and it didn't take long for you all to jump on it. Points taken, I haven't done the research you all have, although I'm still not sold.
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